Is Jesus God?

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  • Now he claims the Word of God is not a real person or messenger of God that exisited as the Beginning of Creation.

    Correct ... there is NO scripture which teaches that the Word of God is a real person who lived at the beginning of creation! All such ideas of word of God as a living person emanate from "trinity" dogma thinking ("real pre-existence of Jesus" because without such there could be no "God the Son" doctrine). Unfortunately, some have recognized trinity error, but for whatever reason maintain the pillar of trinity doctrine as one of their dogma's pillars ...

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2021

    There is only One God. And he has a Personal Name. I don't prescibed to the trinity dogma that is absent from the Bible nor any of its fallicies. When Jesus went to the synagogue, he went to worship the God of Israel whose name is Jehovah which was represented by the tetagramation. I already showed you scriptures that Jehovah is the Creator. I also showed you the Bible states Jehovah is the true God.

    But the Bible also reveals that God has sons which are angels. All these existed before the physical universe. That is why I showed you (Job 38:7 and Revelation 22:16)


    Jesus told the samaritian woman how to worship God. Of course trintarians reject this....

    God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

    Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. (John 4:23)

    Jesus NEVER claimed to be God but notice the woman's reponse and how Jesus answered her....

    The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.”  Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (John 4:25)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675
    edited October 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    "The God" is the true God, Jehovah. The note finishes with Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.” Also the Angel of the God is Jesus Christ who stood by Paul and recruited him earlier.

    Your recent posts in this thread come across to me as more menagerie than meaningful, but among your more understated declarations in them is this one, in which you acknowledge some of the content of a note about the Greek word "la·treuʹo" in the JW online study Bible. Thanks for the acknowledgement, but in my view, you didn't quote enough of the note. The full note reads this way (emphasis added):

    The Greek verb la·treuʹo basically denotes serving. As used in the Scriptures, it usually refers to rendering service to God or in connection with the worship of him (Mt 4:10; Lu 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7; Ro 1:9; Php 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Re 7:15; 22:3), including service at the sanctuary or temple (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10). Thus, in some contexts the expression can also be rendered “to worship.” In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42; Ro 1:25) Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.

    In an earlier response to me in this thread, you accused me of quoting from a "Corrupt and Misleading" Scripture. You claimed "[t]he Greek doesn't not have the word WORSHIP," and then "challenge[d]" me to "correct and admit" that I had "purposely used a falsified scripture." You concluded your post with the odd directive, "Now prove your Deception or I will with future postings."

    The JW study Bible's note on the Greek word in question, discovered and referenced by @C Mc, raises serious doubts about the accuracy of your accusations. According to YOUR church's reference work...

    • The Greek word "usually refers" to service to God OR the worship of God, including cultic rituals as I described in my previous post (e.g. service at a temple or sanctuary).
    • In some contexts, the Greek word CAN BE rendered "to worship," as the ESV translated it. Yet you called that translation "Corrupt and Misleading."
    • The ESV's rendering of the verse is NOT "falsified" as you claimed, but in fact can be, and in some translations IS, deemed justified given the Greek word used.

    In short, @BroRando, your accusations about my previous post were false. I didn't use a "corrupt," "misleading," or "falsified" Scripture. I engaged in no "deception." You accused me of doing so! But you were wrong, in every case wrong.


    Among the many reasons CD expectations ask us to "criticize ideas, not people" is the risk of an outcome such as the one you have created for yourself. You made false accusations, not just about another poster's ideas, but about another poster, personally. To accuse an idea falsely is usually not much more than a mistake. To accuse another poster falsely is just plain wrong... and totally avoidable.


  • How can you say so much and yet say nothing at all but divert with gibberish. Claiming the word WORSHIP was in Acts 27:23 is a lie. I also provided PROOF that WORSHIP is not in the GREEK TEXT. You then diverted to a different text about false WORSHIP.... trying to divert attention from what you did.

    BroRando Posts: 145 12:14AM Flag

    Bill_ColeyOct 16, 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    The scripture you are quoting is Corrupt and Misleading. "For this very night there stood before me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship...."English Standard Version

    The Greek doesn't not have the word WORSHIP. I challenge you to correct and admit you purprosely used a falsified scripture. (Acts 27:23 Grrek)


    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    How can you say so much and yet say nothing at all but divert with gibberish. Claiming the word WORSHIP was in Acts 27:23 is a lie. I also provided PROOF that WORSHIP is not in the GREEK TEXT. You then diverted to a different text about false WORSHIP.... trying to divert attention from what you did.

    I actually said quite a bit in my previous post, with little or no "gibberish"... unless, of course, you consider the JW Study Bible, from which I quoted, to be "gibberish."

    What did I claim about the word "worship" in Acts 27.23? Only that according to the JW Study Bible:

    • The Greek word "la·treuʹo," which IS found in Acts 27.23, "usually refers" to service to God OR the worship of God, including cultic rituals as I described in my previous post (e.g. service at a temple or sanctuary)
    • In some contexts, that Greek word CAN BE rendered "to worship," as the ESV translated it.
    • The ESV's rendering of the verse is NOT "falsified" as you claimed, but in fact can be, and in some translations IS, deemed justified given the Greek word used.

    In case you didn't see the quotation from the JW Study Bible in my previous post, here it is again (emphasis added):

    The Greek verb la·treuʹo basically denotes serving. As used in the Scriptures, it usually refers to rendering service to God or in connection with the worship of him (Mt 4:10Lu 2:374:8Ac 7:7Ro 1:9Php 3:32Ti 1:3Heb 9:1412:28Re 7:1522:3), including service at the sanctuary or temple (Heb 8:59:910:213:10). Thus, in some contexts the expression can also be rendered “to worship.” In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42Ro 1:25Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.

    And in case you didn't see the numerous relevant assertions in that quotation, here's one prominent one again: "Thus, in some contexts the expression [FROM THE SAME GREEK WORD AS IS IN ACTS 27.23!] can also be rendered 'to worship.'"


    Does the Greek word "la·treuʹo" also have false worship connotations? It can, "in a few cases" reports the JW Study Bible. Is Acts 26.7 one of those "few cases"? No. Here's Acts 26.6-7 (LEB):

    6 And now I stand here on trial on the basis of hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain as they earnestly serve him night and day. Concerning this hope I am being accused by the Jews, O king! 

    There's no "false worship" indicated in Paul's use of the word "la·treuʹo," translated "serve," in that verse.


    So I used the JW Study Bible (and BDAG) to claim that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" found in Acts 27.23 CAN BE translated "worship," which means, according to the JW Study Bible (and basically all other sources), the word "worship" or a word that means something very close to it IS in Acts 27.23, in the form of the Greek word "la·treuʹo."

    You should direct your false accusations of corrupted, "falsified," and "misleading" Scriptures to the JW Study Bible people.

  • Yet, after you spew all your wormwood, WORSHIP is still not in ACTS 27:23... 😁

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • @BroRando October 17 The Greek doesn't not have the word WORSHIP.

    Translation is the intersection of original language word meaning range & target language word meaning range within the bounds of translator's faith belief ideas, which can be what does original language word mean to the translator(s) in that context.

    Suggest researching Strong's Greek #3000 meaning range: (English translation choice in Acts 27:23 is serve OR worship)

    3000 λατρεύω [latreuo /lat·ryoo·o/] v. From latris (a hired menial); TDNT 4:58; TDNTA 503; GK 3302; 21 occurrences; AV translates as “serve” 16 times, “worship” three times, “do the service” once, and “worshipper” once. 1 to serve for hire. 2 to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen. 2a in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship. 2b to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship. 2b1 of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office.

     James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).


    @BroRando October 17 I don't prescibed to the trinity dogma that is absent from the Bible nor any of its fallicies.

    We agree the word trinity (OR tri-unity) does not appear in original language words of the Bible. Logos Bible Search for trinity OR tri-unity in all Bibles in my library found one translator, Kenneth S Wuest, added "[in the council help by the Trinity]" explanatory note in Acts 2:22-24

    Men, Israelites. Hear these words at once. Jesus, the Nazarene, a man who has been demonstrated to you by God to be that which He claims to be, this demonstration taking the form of miracles that show the power of God, and miracles that are a startling, imposing, amazement-awakening portent, and miracles that have for their purpose the attestation of the divine mission of the one who performs them, which miracles God performed through His intermediate agency in your midst even as you yourselves know positively; this One, having been delivered up by the counsel of God which [in the council held by the Trinity] had decided upon His destiny, even by the foreordination of God which is that act fixing His destiny, by wicked hands you crucified and killed, whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death because it was not possible for Him to be mastered by it. (Acts 2:22-24 Wuest)

    Likewise do not know how my faith belief ideas (mis)align with various human written theological degrees/dogmas (across a variety of denominations & religious groupings). If you ask for hands to be raised by those who identify as a trinnie OR trinitarion, my hands would stay down by my side (have doubts about those words describing me along with not knowing what definition is intended for non-biblical wording).

    Personally describe myself as a follower of The Way because Jesus said: "I AM The Way, and The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to The Father except through me." in John 14:6



    @Wolfgang October 17 ... there is NO scripture which teaches that the Word of God is a real person who lived at the beginning of creation! All such ideas of word of God as a living person emanate from "trinity" dogma thinking ("real pre-existence of Jesus" because without such there could be no "God the Son" doctrine). Unfortunately, some have recognized trinity error, but for whatever reason maintain the pillar of trinity doctrine as one of their dogma's pillars ...

    Are the words of Jesus truthful OR was the specially sent man Jesus deluded about spiritually knowing & experiencing plural el-o-HEEM אֱלֹהִים God's Glory & Love before the world existed ?

    And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

    “Father, those whom you have given to me — I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24 LEB)

    FWIW: personally have not studied "trinity" doctrine/dogma human writings by various denominations & religious groups so a bit curious about source(s) for trinity idea assertions (not well known to me).



    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    Yet, after you spew all your wormwood, WORSHIP is still not in ACTS 27:23... 😁

    This response demonstrates that you're not willing/able/prepared/equipped/something to engage in serious dialogue about the Acts 27 text. In the course of our exchange, you've accused me of intentionally using "falsified scripture," of diverting our conversation via "gibberish," and now, of spewing wormwood. What you haven't done is even mention, let alone engage, the substance of my text-based argument, which in part I documented via a quotation from the online study Bible of your own church.

    When you're willing to stop with the juvenile character assaults and emoticons, and participate in authentic dialogue about issues, not people, let me know.

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2021

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Are the words of Jesus truthful OR was the specially sent man Jesus deluded about spiritually knowing & experiencing plural el-o-HEEM אֱלֹהִים God's Glory & Love before the world existed ?

    Jesus was not deluded, he just did not even say or declare what YOU make of his words ...there is NOTHING about Jesus already knowing or experiencing something before the world existed. Jesus knew when he was speaking that God's plan for the Messiah from before the world included not only suffering but afterwards glorification. Same applies to what is mentioned about God loving Jesus before the world was. Cp. 1Pe 1:20 - before the world was, Jesus was FOREKNOWN, but not Jesus already lived, knew and experienced.

    And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

    Unfortunately, a very misleading and trinitarian biased translation "I had at your side" ....

    1Pe 1:20 states clearly that Jesus existed in form of thought, word, idea in God's foreknowledge (in God's mind) ... the verse does thus indicate as clearly that Jesus was NOT living at God's side before the world was. (Jesus is now living at God's side after being received up (ascension) into God's presence).

  • Many Bibles contain WORSHIP in (Joshua 5:14) Who is he worshipping?


    English Standard Version

    And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” (Joshua 5:14)

    King James Bible

    And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

    New King James Version

    So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

    American Standard Version

    And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of Jehovah am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

    World English Bible

    He said, "No; but I have come now as commander of Yahweh's army." Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and worshipped, and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)


  • And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

    This sounds familar.... Proverbs 8:22 and Proverbs 8:26 and to mention Proverbs 8:30 for the kicker....

    The book of Proverbs says that long ago wisdom was beside Jehovah, the Creator, as “a master worker.” That certainly applies to Jesus. Long before he came to earth, Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”​—Colossians 1:17; Revelation 3:14.

    Read more...

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    Many Bibles contain WORSHIP in (Joshua 5:14) Who is he worshipping?

    The verse we're discussing in our exchange is Acts 27.23, not Joshua 5.14.

    The specific word we're discussing in our exchange is the Greek word la·treuʹo in Acts 27.23, not the Hebrew word "shachah" in Joshua 5.14.

    I've made no comments about and have nothing now to add about the Hebrew word "shachah" in Joshua 5.14 because all of my focus has been and will continue to be on the Greek word la·treuʹo in Acts 27.23.

    On two occasions during our exchange I've quoted for you a study note from the JW online study Bible which states clearly that the Greek word la·treuʹo in Acts 27.23 (as well as Acts 26.7) pertains to service in a cultic or worship setting, and CAN BE translated "worship," as some English Bibles, including the ESV, do. My point in quoting that study note was to dispute your claim in our exchange that the ESV's translation of Acts 27.23 is "falsified," "corrupt and misleading," and that I "purposely" and knowingly employed it as such.

    PLEASE address the issues specified in the previous paragraph, and do so directly. No more misdirection via juvenile commentaries about me or excurses on words other than la·treuʹo and verses other than Acts 27.23.

    • Given the study note found in the study Bible published by YOUR church, do you STILL claim that the ESV's translation of the Greek word la·treuʹo in the Acts verse is "falsified," "corrupt," and "misleading"? If so, on what do you base your disagreement with the JW study Bible?
    • Do you dispute the study Bible's (and most other authorities') claim that the Greek word la·treuʹo is about service specifically in a temple/cultic/worship setting? If so, on what basis?


  • Again... same stance.

    BroRando Posts: 145 12:14AM Flag

    Bill_ColeyOct 16, 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    The scripture you are quoting is Corrupt and Misleading. "For this very night there stood before me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship...."English Standard Version

    The Greek doesn't not have the word WORSHIP. I challenge you to correct and admit you purprosely used a falsified scripture. (Acts 27:23 Grrek)

    You are being untruthful and deceitful. Yes, you mislead with the intention of being misleading. By clicking (Acts 27:23 Greek) you see the actal translation.  la·treuʹo in (Acts 27:23 Greek) is translated (I serve) also as you know θεοῦ (theou) means (of God) and not "the God" as you tried to deceive with the corrupted Modalist ESV. One has to do a scripture gymnastics to change theou (Of God) to theon which mean (the God) which is not in the scripture.

    So the subject of (Acts 27:23 Greek) is not "the God" but rather, an angel of God, whose ego eimi and I serve.

    Paul serves this angel of God whose ego eimi... Paul belongs to this angel of God which is Christ.

    Angel Worship is forbidden. Sons of the true God are angels and are referred to as godlike ones. "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.  You must not have any other gods besides me." (Exodus 3:2-3)

    Joshua 22:22

    The God of gods, Jehovah! The God of gods, Jehovah! He knows, and Israel will also know. If we were rebellious and unfaithful to Jehovah, do not spare us this day.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • The real problem with those claiming that Jesus already lived before the foundation of the world, was the Creator or helping hand agent at creation, was a living wisdom person, etc. is this: They do not believe Scripture's plain testimony that Jesus was a human being!

    Nothing more need be said ... they serve their God Jesus, or demi-God Jesus, or 2nd voice/person of a Trio-God, or perhaps some other mythological mystery. Polytheism in its fanciest disguises.

    I believe in one singular true God and in Jesus truly being God's human Messiah.

    Simple, plain Biblical truth. No further explanations from my end to be expected .... 😉

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675
    edited October 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    Again... same stance....

    You are being untruthful and deceitful. Yes, you mislead with the intention of being misleading. By clicking (Acts 27:23 Greek) you see the actal translation. la·treuʹo in (Acts 27:23 Greek) is translated (I serve)

    As I have noted previously, the Greek word "la·treuʹo" is indeed translated "serve" by many English language Bibles, and from everything I've seen, such is an accurate translation. No deception. No misleading.

    But as I have ALSO noted previously, the Greek word "la·treuʹo" usually refers to service in a cultic, temple, or worship setting, and hence, as pointed out by the following note in the JW Study Bible (emphasis added), CAN LEGITIMATELY BE TRANSLATED "worship":

    The Greek verb la·treuʹo basically denotes serving. As used in the Scriptures, it usually refers to rendering service to God or in connection with the worship of him (Mt 4:10Lu 2:374:8Ac 7:7Ro 1:9Php 3:32Ti 1:3Heb 9:1412:28Re 7:1522:3), including service at the sanctuary or temple (Heb 8:59:910:213:10). Thus, in some contexts the expression can also be rendered “to worship.” In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42Ro 1:25Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.

    Are you then saying that the JW Study Bible is also "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead when it reports that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" usually refers to "service to God or in connection with the worship of him," and therefore, "in some contexts the expression can also be rendered 'to worship'"? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]


    When in its side note on Acts 27.23 the JW Study Bible includes "worship" as a parenthetical option to its chosen translation of the Greek word "la·treuʹo"...

    "to whom I render sacred service: Or “whom I serve (worship).”​—See study note on Ac 26:7.

    ... do you believe the JW Study Bible is AGAIN "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]


    You linked to and apparently base your accusations of deceit against me on an interlinear translation of Acts 27.23. According to what I would call a concordance page on the word the Greek word "la·treuʹo" that is accessible by a link found just above the Greek word on the page to which you linked, "to worship" is offered as a possible translation in Acts 27.23 by Thayer's Greek Lexicon. Are you saying that the publisher of the interlinear to which you linked is "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead when it publishes Thayer's optional translation? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]


    BOTTOM LINE: You linked to an interlinear's translation of Acts 27.23, and accept as correct its word choice for the Greek word "la·treuʹo." That's well and good. But you link to ONLY ONE translation and appear to accept ONLY its word choice as correct; that's not well and good. There are other resources - other legitimate, credible, and authoritative resources - that provide translation guidance about Acts 27.23, many of which - including the JW Study Bible - report that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" refers to service in a cultic, temple, and worship setting, which means the word CAN CORRECTLY be translated as "worship."

    I welcome you to the translation choices you make. I make mine only on the basis of the resources I access, resources such as the JW Study Bible, BDAG, and the concordance page to which your interlinear provides a link. If you simply must accuse somebody or something of intentional deceit and dishonesty because they disagree with your chosen translation of the Greek word "la·treuʹo," in my view you should include among the targets of your accusations the resources upon which they rely. In my case, that includes the JW Study Bible.


    you know θεοῦ (theou) means (of God) and not "the God" as you tried to deceive with the corrupted Modalist ESV. One has to do a scripture gymnastics to change theou (Of God) to theon which mean (the God) which is not in the scripture.

    I've never claimed that θεοῦ (theou) should be translated "the God." If you simply must accuse me of deceit, please do so on something that resembles an accurate basis.

    I've claimed that in Acts 27.23 Paul does NOT say he belongs to the "angel of God;" he says he belongs to God, one of whose angels came to him. According to the interlinear to which YOU linked, the Greek words of the clause at issue in Acts 27.23 are translated...

    stood by / for / me / this / / night / / of God / whose / am / I / whom / and / I serve / an angel

    According to the JW Study Bible, those component words are best translated (emphasis added), "This night an angel of the God to whom I belong and to whom I render sacred service stood by me."

    The JWSB and several other translations render the verse to include the phrase "the God," so if you simply must accuse me of deceit for the way I report the content of Acts 27.23, please include the JWSB and those other translations among the targets of your accusations, for those resources, not my personal knowledge of Biblical Greek (of which I have basically none), are the basis for my report.


    WHAT YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED:

    • Do you dispute the JW Study Bible's (and most other authorities') claim that the Greek word la·treuʹo is about service specifically in a temple/cultic/worship setting? If so, on what basis?
    • The questions I re-asked you in THIS POST, questions that date back to October 12.


  • When a person deceitfuly claims the (study note on Ac 26:7) is referring to  Acts 27:23. It is a Lie... that you were more than willing to disperse.


    Acts 26:7

    rendering him sacred service: The Greek verb la·treuʹo basically denotes serving. As used in the Scriptures, it usually refers to rendering service to God or in connection with the worship of him (Mt 4:10; Lu 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7; Ro 1:9; Php 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Re 7:15; 22:3), including service at the sanctuary or temple (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10). Thus, in some contexts the expression can also be rendered “to worship.” In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42; Ro 1:25) Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.”

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Bill_Coley said:

    You linked to and apparently base your accusations of deceit against me on an interlinear translation of Acts 27.23. According to what I would call a concordance page on the word the Greek word "la·treuʹo" that is accessible by a link found just above the Greek word on the page to which you linked, "to worship" is offered as a possible translation in Acts 27.23 by Thayer's Greek Lexicon. Are you saying that the publisher of the interlinear to which you linked is "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead when it publishes Thayer's optional translation? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]

    Bill,

    You will not get a straight answer. At best, you will get a devatation or accused of something else. This is basic training for many of them. The tactic is standard and to be expected. This is based on my experiences with JWs at my door. I am sure you know this. CM

  • When a person deceitfuly claims the (study note on Ac 26:7) is referring to  Acts 27:23. It is a Lie... that you were more than willing to disperse.


    Acts 26:7

    rendering him sacred service: The Greek verb la·treuʹo basically denotes serving. As used in the Scriptures, it usually refers to rendering service to God or in connection with the worship of him (Mt 4:10; Lu 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7; Ro 1:9; Php 3:3; 2Ti 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28; Re 7:15; 22:3), including service at the sanctuary or temple (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10). Thus, in some contexts the expression can also be rendered “to worship.” In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42; Ro 1:25) Some translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew (referred to as J14-17 in App. C4) read “serving (worshipping) Jehovah.”

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    When a person deceitfuly claims the (study note on Ac 26:7) is referring to  Acts 27:23. It is a Lie... that you were more than willing to disperse.

    Again with the accusations.


    Did you read the study note on Acts 27.23? It reads (emphasis is in the original),

    "to whom I render sacred service: Or “whom I serve (worship).”​—See study note on Ac 26:7."

    The study note for Acts 27.23 directs readers to the study note for Acts 26.7. How then was it deceitful - a "lie" - for me to claim that the study note for Acts 26.7 applies to Acts 27.23?


    "In a few cases, it is used in connection with false worship​—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Ac 7:42; Ro 1:25)."

    I noted this piece of the study note previously.

    1. The study note says such a meaning is found "in a few cases," but clearly Acts 27.23 is NOT one of them, since in the verse, Paul refers to his service/worship of God, not some "created" thing.
    2. The study note ALSO says, "Thus in some contexts the expression can also be rendered 'to worship.'" Despite the fact that I have quoted that piece to you AT LEAST three times during our exchange, you have yet to engage it - yet even to mention it. Similarly, you have yet to engage or even mention basically any substantive piece of my posts in our exchange, including nearly the whole of my previous post in which I asked for your direct response to three questions - which you chose not even to mention - and provided a link to questions in another thread that I asked but you chose not even to mention.


    I've had enough interactions with you since your arrival in these forums to conclude with confidence that except in VERY rare circumstances, you don't answer questions put to you; in fact, you don't even mention or acknowledge questions put to you. You're willing to accuse - falsely - others of deceit and bad intentions, but you're not willing to address or even mention the questions others pose to you. That's not an acceptable form of "Christian discourse" for me, so I am withdrawing from our exchanges. You may continue to post - to accuse, to allege, and to personalize your targets - but I will no longer reply... UNTIL you post direct responses to the questions I posed in BOTH THIS POST AND THIS POST. I don't expect you to address any of those questions - and if you don't, so be it - but until you address them - ALL of them - I will no longer engage you in these forums.

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @C Mc posted:

    Bill,

    You will not get a straight answer. At best, you will get a devatation or accused of something else. This is basic training for many of them. The tactic is standard and to be expected. This is based on my experiences with JWs at my door. I am sure you know this. CM

    I appreciate the intention of your comments, CM, but I choose to focus solely on the posts and posting conduct of the individual poster @BroRando rather than the practices of the membership writ large of any groups, associations, or religious communities to which he might belong. I know very little about Jehovah's Witnesses other than what I read on their website. But fortunately, I don't have to know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses because in these forums I engage - well, I used to engage - only with one specific person... who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness. Your observations may well be correct! But for my purposes, their accuracy is valuable but not necessary.

    Thanks for taking the time to make your post.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Bill_Coley,

    The content of your post is noted. We all have different approaches in addressing matters. Be blessed. CM

  • @Bill_Coley wrote:

    I've claimed that in Acts 27.23 Paul does NOT say he belongs to the "angel of God;" he says he belongs to God, one of whose angels came to him. According to the interlinear to which YOU linked, the Greek words of the clause at issue in Acts 27.23 are translated...

    stood by / for / me / this / / night / / of God / whose / am / I / whom / and / I serve / an angel

    ================================================================================================================

    Paul never says he belongs to God as you falsely assert. NONE of the scritures state such a thing. Nor can you rearrange this Greek transaltion to say it. stood by / for / me / this / / night / / of God / whose / am / I / whom / and / I serve / an angel

    Word for word... “for there stood by me this night an angel of God whose I am and whom I serve”

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

    @Wolfgang October 18 Unfortunately, a very misleading and trinitarian biased translation "I had at your side" ....

    What is your translation ? (literally not seeing Koine Greek language basis for "very misleading ... translation" idea assertion along with not knowing what you mean by trinitarian - since "three voices [plural] in One unique God" idea is something your faith currently believes cannot be)

    καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (John 17:5 SBLGNT)

    καὶ - and: conjunction, logical connective

    νῦν - now: adverb

    δόξασόν - to glorify: verb, aorist, active, imperative, 2nd person, singular (imperative is commanding action)

    με - me: pronoun, personal, 1st person, accusative, singular

    σύ - you: pronoun, personal, 2nd person, nominative, singular

    πάτερ - father: noun, vocative, singular, masculine

    παρὰ - from beside, by the side of, by, beside: preposition (physical beside/side/by aspects are challenging to describe in a spiritual only realm)

    σεαυτῷ - yourself: pronoun, reflexive, 2nd person, dative, singular, masculine

    τῇ - the: article, dative, singular, feminine

    δόξῃ - glory: noun, dative, singular, feminine (article agrees with noun for case, number, & gender)

    ᾗ - that: pronoun, relative, dative, singular, feminine (pronoun for δόξῃ agrees in case, number, & gender)

    εἶχον - to have: verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 1st person, singular ("the glory that was having" expresses continuous action in past time)

    πρὸ - before: preposition

    τοῦ - the: article, genitive, singular, masculine OR neuter

    τὸν - the: article, accusative, singular, masculine

    κόσμον - world: noun, accusative, singular, masculine

    εἶναι - to be, to exist: verb, present, active, infinitive

    παρὰ - from beside, by the side of, by, beside: preposition (physical beside/side/by aspects are challenging to describe in a spiritual only realm)

    σοί - you: pronoun


    Letters of Peter were written about unique plural God that includes Lord Jesus while John 17 priestly prayer is words spoken & earnestly prayed by the man Jesus, who experienced God's Glory and Love BEFORE plural God created physical realm.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2021

    What is your translation ?

    there are a few to chose from:

    NASB - “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    ASV - And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

    ESV And now, Father, aglorify me in your own presence with the glory bthat I had with you cbefore the world existed.

    Nothing like "at your side" (suggesting "living at your side") in German Bibles either ... thus the LEB you are using is rather dubious.

    4123 παρά (para): prep.; ≡ Str 3844; TDNT 5.727—1. LN 83.25 at, by alongside; a position near a location (Mt 20:30; Lk 9:47; Jn 19:25; Ac 16:13); 2. LN 83.9 among, with; in a location (Mt 28:15); 3. LN 84.5 from extension from a source (Lk 2:1; 6:19; Jn 6:46; Mk 16:9 v.r.); 4. LN 90.14 from, by, of; marker of a source (Mk 12:2; Jn 4:9; Ac 3:2; 2Jn 3); 5. LN 90.3 for, by, with; a marker of a potential agent (Mt 19:26; Lk 1:37); 6. LN 90.20 in opinion of the view-point the participant (Ro 2:13); 7. LN 89.137 contrary to, in opposition to (Ro 1:26; Ro 16:17); 8. LN 89.132 instead of, a marker of contrast (Ro 1:25); 9. LN 89.111 with; a marker of association (Lk 11:37); 10. LN 89.25 because of; marker of cause or reason (1Co 12:15); 11. LN 78.29 beyond, to a greater degree than (Lk 13:2); 12. LN 59.76 less, minus (2Co 11:24), note: see LN index for a fuller treatment of the lexical units.

    Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

    Furthermore, when you read carefully you can perhaps notice that Jesus is not saying that he as a living being lived with God before the world was, but rather that he already then "had glory with God" => how? Very easy to understand when considering 1Pe 1:20 (=> "foreknown by God").

    There was no other living being at God's side before the world was ... as only ONE (not two, not three, not more) -- the Father, the One Who alone is true God) is mentioned in Scripture as existing before creation.

    I need more self-control to resist the temptation of wanting to answer and reply after having said I had written enough on the topic.

  • @Wolfgang

    Out of all the thousands of religions... there is only One Relgion that teaches God the Father alone is the true God. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3) He has a Persoanl Name. (Pslams 83:18)


    Jehovah’s Witnesses—Who Are We?

    We come from hundreds of ethnic and language backgrounds, yet we are united by common goals. Above all, we want to honor Jehovah, the God of the Bible and the Creator of all things. We do our best to imitate Jesus Christ and are proud to be called Christians. Each of us regularly spends time helping people learn about the Bible and God’s Kingdom. Because we witness, or talk, about Jehovah God and his Kingdom, we are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Explore our site. Read the Bible online. Learn more about us and our beliefs.


    Lesson 9: “Jehovah . . . Created All Things

    https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/children/become-jehovahs-friend/videos/jehovah-created-all-things/

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Out of all the thousands of religions... there is only One Relgion that teaches God the Father alone is the true God. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3) He has a Persoanl Name. (Pslams 83:18)

    You are mistaken ... there are other groups and churches who believe this fundamental Biblical truth, a search for "biblical unitarian faith" - or similar - might give you some more information.

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2021

    I never personally met a religion that stuck to the scripture (Pslams 83:18) other than the one I am in. Most religions claim Jesus is God. We translate Bible literature into over 1,000 languages since we witness about Jehovah's Kingdom all over the World. We do our Best to Follow the work Jesus gave to his followers.

    Notice this scripture:   Und die gute Botschaft vom Königreich wird auf der ganzen bewohnten Erde bekannt gemacht werden als Zeugnis für alle Völker, und dann wird das Ende kommen. (Matthew 24:14)

    German translations:

    The third transaltion is German sign language... why not look around... don't forget to look around at the videos... that will keep you busy for months.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • I need no information and missionary activity from you ... I have regular visits from a family who is involved in JW organization, and we understand each other quite well, especially so since they learned that I do not believe in the trinity dogma. I have even visited them in their home for studying some Biblical topics where we differ, and had them over at my house for exchanging understanding of Biblical matters. Thus, I do know some things about your group's teaching and doctrine, certainly not all of it ...

    Due to various facts and considerations as well as experiences in my life over a few decades with folks from different groups, I am not interested in joining any denomination or church group.

  • That doesn't suprise me at all. We are Worldwide... and have a Worldwide brotherhood, having the same beleifs. But a person can't simply join like other religions. We have the one true religion and we know it. Still we offer Bible truths to others Worldwide. Jehovah by means of Holy Spirit draws a peson of a righteous heart. Therefore, you don't do the choosing, Jehovah does.


    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @BroRando said in his attempt to recruit @Wolfgang interest in JWs organization:

    -- Jehovah’s Witnesses—Who Are We?...

    -- Lesson 9: “”...

    -- I never personally met a religion that stuck to the scripture () other than the one I am in. Most religions claim Jesus is God...

    -- Notice this scripture:  Und die gute Botschaft vom Königreich wird auf der ganzen bewohnten Erde bekannt gemacht werden als Zeugnis für alle Völker, und dann wird das Ende kommen. ..

    -- "...why not look around... don't forget to look around at the videos... that will keep you busy for months".

    @BroRando,

    It's good you came out of the closet to reveal your true purpose for joining CD. No one is required to share their religious affiliation in these forums. It's better to avoid prejudice in considering a perspective different from the one accustomed to Biblical Interpretation. An open mind led to a richer experience in life.

     @BroRando , you may have been compelled to "come clean" because of your drive to do your door-to-door work here in CD while covertly directing posters to the JWs website. Your door tactics have been the same over the years, everywhere. You could have tried to recruit  @Wolfgang  in PM (personal Message). You may want to try the PM route with  @Bill_Coley  since the three of you share the same basic view of Jesus. He is

    A man of conviction is he. @Bill_Coley  is a thinker and a "Master debater" by CD's Standards.  @BroRando , you will have to answer his questions, or you won't have a JWs' "prayer-of-a-chance" in recruiting him. In short, you have probably blown your chance already.

    I am sure  @Wolfgang  nor the other CD Posters are NOT impressed with you sharing the Matt 24:14 text and JWs Bible study in German. This is my pure opinion. Now that you are so bold and German specific settle down and read more of the threads and include others in your exchanges, using a general standard Bible translation. Bill relationships and not wear the Kingdom on your sleeves.

    Would you help us understand why the NWT should be used by others not belonging to the JW organization? Clear up any misunderstand or misstatements about it. Share your answers, not here, but on my recent post:

    https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/979/the-new-world-translation-a-trust-worthy-bible#latest

    I will see you around the forums. CM

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